作为一位程序员和比特币开发者，Casey Rodarmor在过去两年中分别创建了Ordinals协议和Runes协议。通过开发Ordinals协议，Casey为在比特币区块链上直接存储和传输非货币数据（如数字艺术品）提供了新的方式。可以说，没有Casey就没有比特币生态。
在Runes上线前，Casey曾开玩笑说如果“Runes生态上线一个月内市值没达到10亿美元，自己就准备切腹自尽”。虽然在中间短暂达成过目标，但在一个月后市值没有达标。对于这个玩笑，Casey如何回应？两周前的比特币生态大会在香港非常热闹，Casey在香港的感受如何？Runes中文社区的创建者之一Jasmine和PukeCastCN的DUDU在昨天的一场Space中与Casey聊了聊。
DUDU：两周前香港的比特币周很热闹，您对此有什么感受？我听说很多人因为玩得太疯而生病了。
Casey：是的，我缓了一个半星期，但现在好多了。香港的比特币市场真是太疯狂了。西方和东方的玩家有很大的不同。中国人真的很喜欢赌博，对符文和垃圾币都有极大的热情。我觉得这比很多西方的垃圾币迷要好得多，他们总是假装在追求什么未来的金融，甚至谈论要把非洲银行化。这里的市场更纯粹，更诚实，大家都在谈论怎么赚很多钱。
DUDU：Rune协议已经推出一个月了。您对第一个月感觉如何？有没有什么特别的惊喜或想要提及的事情？
Casey：没有什么惊喜，这是幸运的。我主要担心的是协议中的bug。如果有协议级别的bug搞乱了符文的平衡，或者影响了铸币或转账，那就糟糕了。但到目前为止，一切顺利，没有协议级别的bug。ord（是符文的一个参考实现）中有一个小bug，这是不幸的，但并不是大问题，我很高兴及时修复了那个bug。
我觉得可以预见的是，Runes刚推出后，会有很多人失望，因为它被炒得非常热，大家都在说“这些东西要起飞了，To the moon”之类的。但事实并非如此。当一项技术刚推出时，它是最糟糕的状态。生态系统支持最差，工具不齐全，交易平台也不齐全。我认为，出现一些失望是很自然的。
我不知道符文的价格和受欢迎程度会怎样，我不做预测。我唯一赚钱的投资是比特币，作为投资者，我的智慧非常有限。我真的不知道会发生什么。令人愉快的是，那些整合符文的人告诉我，这比整合BRC-20要容易得多，这是有道理的。协议更简单，特别是当你使用BRC-20做任何事情时，制作一个铭文然后可能会转移它。转移一个BRC-20需要三笔交易，这是相当多的。而转移符文只需一笔交易。
我认为符文在简洁性和效率方面的技术优势已经显现出来了。它一直是简单且高效的，那些整合符文的人也这么说，这太好了。我不知道符文将来会怎么样，这很难说。在以太坊上，有去中心化交易平台，人们可以在链上进行各种交易，比如交易符文或BRC-20。比特币没有这些。Solana有零秒交易时间，比特币没有。我认为，符文将来会占据什么样的市场还有待观察。就我而言，第一个月很棒，一切都按计划进行。
Jasmine：您一直强调，Runes是为Memecoin而生，它不关乎科技，更多是为了社交、赌博和娱乐，为了让更多其他生态的人关注比特币生态，最终使用比特币。Runes也确实吸引了很多其他生态的人关注和参与。截止目前，符文代币已经超过7万个，基本上都是Memecoin。那么，你认为Runes生态接下来的突破可能会发生在哪里呢？对于builders来说更应该关注什么？例如，建设一些让星际赌场更有意思的应用？或者比如其他什么？
Casey：关于未来的协议开发，实际上没有太多计划。有一些小事。例如，有一种可能性是允许人们创建符文，而符文的创建者是唯一可以铸造它的人。这是未来协议的一部分。协议开发非常棘手。特别是，例如，人们想要类似于去中心化交易平台（dexes）的东西，比如在比特币上的符文版Uniswap。
然而，问题在于，如果你设计协议不当，可能会引入一种叫做MEV（矿工可提取价值）的东西。像Uniswap这样的东西，在以太坊上的矿工或验证者可以插入自己的交易并重新排序交易，以从用户交易中赚钱。例如，如果你发送一笔购买交易，矿工可以在你之前购买，从而保证你是从矿工那里购买。这不仅是矿工牺牲用户利益赚钱的问题，这也会导致矿工集中化，因为矿工们必须投资于这种非常复杂的基础设施才能具有竞争力。这意味着矿工不能再简单地插上硬件就开始挖矿，他们必须做很多其他工作，这会使矿工集中化。而比特币的核心价值主张是去中心化。我想改进协议，但无论如何，我都不会添加任何导致比特币矿工集中化的东西，这是非常棘手的。
对于在Runes上构建的人们，我的建议是你们必须让事情变得有趣。如果你没有像以太坊那样的去中心化交易平台，也没有像Solana那样一秒钟的即时交易确认，你只能专注于让事情变得有趣，这是一个很高的要求。这很难。你必须让你的界面有趣。你必须让你的社区有趣。你必须让你引入的任何机制都变得有趣。
但我认为人们真正应该关注的是乐趣，想想如何建立一个尽可能好的赌场。符文是为meme币和垃圾币而建，但它是一个好协议。在协议层面上没有什么阻止人们用它做“严肃的事情”。我对能只做什么严肃的事情非常怀疑，很多协议只是骗局，他们没有做到他们所说的事情，所以不要那样做。但如果有足够的兴趣，比如在符文上有一个一比一支持美元或其他货币的稳定币，我不会感到惊讶，让我们都为L2的发展祈祷吧。
99%的二层协议都是垃圾？
DUDU：您看好比特币二层吗？为什么？
Casey：我不知道我是否会说自己看好第二层。问题是，据我所知，还没有人开发出一个真正有效的第二层。很多人有想法。即使他们有一个精美的白皮书，你也必须以怀疑的态度看待它。在过去的10年里，已经发布了成千上万的白皮书，但99.999%都是垃圾，完全是垃圾。你必须等到有人构建出一个有效的东西，然后你才能看到系统存在时的特性。
例如，如果你看闪电网络，闪电网络很棒。我喜欢闪电网络，但它有一些实际的缺点和操作上的麻烦。保持通道打开很难，还有各种各样复杂的攻击需要担心。我们还没有看到闪电网络的移动钱包的普及，这种钱包可以与任何人配对，可以与任何人开通通道。目前，在移动端工作的闪电网络钱包是与特定的闪电服务提供商开通通道的。如果你只是读了闪电网络的白皮书，很难预测到所有这些不同的困难。
我对第二层的态度是“眼见为实”。因此与其说是看好，我更多是处于观望状态。我个人依赖L2开发者。当人们在比特币上创建L2时，他们可以在L2上添加任何他们想要的东西，如果他们小心，就不会在基础层导致MEV或集中化。这是我所期望的，我指望L2的发展。如果L2具有这种交易或其他功能，人们可以将符文转移到L2，在L2上进行任何操作，然后将其结算回主链，这是我所希望的未来功能。
Jasmine：之前你在推文里提到宁愿投资一些中心化服务的项目而不是某些Layer 2，想问一下你对去中心化的看法。在所有这些生态系统中，去中心化真的那么重要吗？
Casey：首先要明确的是，去中心化是最好的，其次是那些能够履行承诺的中心化服务。如果不能去中心化，那么如果中心化服务能正常运作，也是可以接受的。在市场竞争中，好的服务会存活下来，差的服务会被淘汰。即使在中心化服务中的竞争中，也是如此。最糟糕的情况是那些声称去中心化但实际上要么是中心化的，要么根本不起作用的服务。我的评论实际上是针对那些投资于根本无法运作或只是借口发行代币然后抛售给人的去中心化项目。所以我更希望投资于真正有效的去中心化项目，但我今天看到的很多项目都不是这样的。投资都流向了那些不可能成功的去中心化项目。
如果人们在投资时必须在一个注定无法成功的去中心化项目和一个能够提供有用服务的中心化服务之间做选择,我更希望人们投资于一个实际能履行承诺的中心化服务。例如,在美国,购买比特币最佳的中心化服务平台可能是 River。这是一个非常简单的比特币金融服务平台,你可以购买比特币,转账等等。我认为如果每个国家都有一两个像 River 这样的公司,为人们提供安全、简单的方式来获取比特币,那就太好了。我宁愿看到这样的情况,而不是一堆永远无法运作的 L2。所以这并不是关于中心化与去中心化的对比,而是关于中心化与假去中心化的对比。在这种情况下,我总是会选择功能性的中心化替代方案。我希望看到一些非常好的、只专注于比特币或 Runes 的中心化交易所,上架每一个 Runes。我认为那会非常有趣,并且会在生态系统中填补一个空缺。
DUDU: BRC-20 has added new functions to new tokens. For example, new tokens can be increased or decreased. But there is no such function in Runes. Stablecoins are a very important feature in Bitcoin. For example, there is such a feature in Ethereum or Solana. But there is no such function in Runes. What do you think of stablecoins in Runes? Have you heard of any stablecoin projects in Runes?
Casey: Of course, I would classify stablecoins into three types.
First, I don’t agree with stablecoins that try to be supported by project utility tokens. It’s a bad idea and these schemes always collapse. Terra’s luna is one of these algorithmic stablecoins. I have seen a similar project called DUCAT, but I don’t endorse it. I read their whitepaper and it’s very complex. I don’t believe that anything they are doing will work. We’ll see.
The second type of stablecoin is creating a synthetic. Essentially, the simplest stablecoin is you buy dollars. For example, or you get dollars. You have this token and people can buy tokens from you at $1 per token, or they can redeem tokens from you at $1 per token. And if you give them a token, you send $1 to their bank account. That’s the simplest and safest stablecoin. Tether and USDC are that kind of stablecoin. I haven’t heard of anyone trying to do that in Runes. These projects are usually very complex. You have to have banking relationships, and so on.
And then there’s another type of stablecoin where you try to create a synthetic stablecoin by trading with counterparties. You have people put Bitcoin into your bank account and then you go long Bitcoin so that Bitcoin goes up in price. You sell put options or call options on Bitcoin. If Bitcoin goes up, you make money. And then you go short Bitcoin as well, so if Bitcoin goes down, you also make money. It’s a little bit like delta-neutral hedging. And so, regardless of whether the price goes up or down, your value stays at the same amount in dollars.
I’ve heard of a few projects that are trying to create stablecoins based on that model. It’s not as crazy as fully synthetic stablecoins because the latter tries to create value out of nothing. I don’t think either of them has reached a practical state yet, and they haven’t even made that public, they just say privately, “Oh hey, we’re looking into this.”
DUDU: You have mentioned OP_CAT several times before. Can you elaborate on why you are optimistic about OP_CAT?
Casey: I like OP_CAT. OP_CAT seems like a very powerful opcode that adds a lot of missing functionality to Bitcoin. Overall, as long as an opcode is reasonable and not crazy, I’m all for it. I personally hope to see OP_CAT. And I hope to see OP_CTV, which is a covenant opcode. And even crazier things like script recovery would be cool.
I’m not a researcher, and I don’t have deep insights. These are just my off-the-cuff opinions. I think it’s too early to say what will ultimately happen. I like OP_CAT, but some people talk about OP_CAT as if it’s an inevitability. Some people on Twitter say anonymously, “OP_CAT is going to happen whether you like it or not.” I think the reality is that it’s actually very uncertain until people actually try to activate something, and that hasn’t been done yet.
BlockBeats note: OP_CAT is a potential opcode that could enable smart contract functionality on Bitcoin. More details can be found in the article “13 lines of code help Bitcoin achieve smart contracts? Understanding OP_CAT soft fork”.
“Have fun, buy Bitcoin”
DUDU: Can you share more information about the Fun Collection with us? We often see you post about it on your social media. Do you have any further plans for when it will be released?
Casey: Fun is a collection of photos shot by my friend Parker Day, with whom I have been collaborating. She started this project two years ago. When she started shooting and doing all the actual work, I was researching ordinals and what later became Runes. We didn’t exactly know how we were going to sell them, but it turned out that by the time they were finished, ordinals and Runes had become popular enough that it actually made sense to put them on Bitcoin as Runes. So, it’s a collection of 1,000 photos shot on film. No Photoshop, just makeup and hair, no special effects.
Fun Collection
Actually, I just finished minting all the Runes today, which took a long time. I had to write a program to wait for low fees to do the minting. So, I finally got all 1,000 of them minted. That’s a lot. I think the total size is 100 megabytes. So, that’s 25 full blocks of Runes. Yes, there is currently no specific release plan. We will sell them in some way, but I’m not sure yet how. But I’m very happy with this collection. I think it might be the most expensive art collection because it was all shot on film, with models and makeup artists. It’s probably the most expensive engraving collection as well. 97 megabytes of data is no joke. So, it’s a good collection. I don’t know if I would recommend other people to buy it. I don’t give investment advice, but the art is really good. So, I’m happy that it’s on-chain.
While this kind of art is not for everyone, this is Parker’s style, and she launched a series called “Icons” in 2017, which was her breakthrough work and has a similar style. I think it fits very well with NFTs because profile picture collections (PFPs) are popular. I think it’s closest to what PFPs look like. What things like Board Ape Yacht Club or Crypto Punks would look like in real life. They’re vivid and very strange. I think if it’s not strange, it’s a bit boring. I don’t want to do another collection of 10,000 images made up of digits. It’s not worth doing if it’s not strange. It’s not interesting. I would encourage people to start browsing through the images. There are some strange details. Some may not be to their taste. There are some sexy girls in there. Those are not as weird. And there are a few pictures of cats. Take a closer look and see if there’s something you like.
Jasmine: You previously joked about “If the Rune protocol doesn’t reach a $1 billion market cap within a month, I’ll commit seppuku.” What would you like to say about this joke? Or would you like to set another goal today?
Casey: Absolutely not, I’m done making price predictions. Given the last target, we didn’t achieve it. I remember on May 20th, our market cap was $999 million. It did go over $1 billion in the month prior to that. But the rule is what the price is a month later. And a month later, the total market cap of Runes is not $1 billion, so you’re now talking to Casey’s “ghost.”
Runes market cap data, image source: GeniiData
DUDU: Lastly, please share any thoughts you have on the Bitcoin ecosystem.
Casey: It’s been great hanging out with a bunch of degens here in Hong Kong. As for the final thing I would say, it’s “buy Bitcoin.” Runes and Ordinals are a fun speculation, but there’s nothing that really compares to Bitcoin. It’s the hardest money we’ve ever had.
If you look at the history of fiat money, the lifespan of fiat money is at most 100 years. They all go extinct, they get devalued, they fall apart. And we can see even with the seemingly strong dollar, inflation is happening faster and faster. So, I would say buy Bitcoin and just play with a small portion of your savings in Runes and Ordinals. But whatever you do, do not buy venture-backed pre-mined coins. There’s no reason to buy pre-mined coins. Making coins doesn’t cost anything, especially Runes, you can just click a button and make a coin.
I don’t tolerate venture-backed pre-mined coins. Play the gambling game with a small portion of your funds. But for the rest, buy Bitcoin. Like I said, it’s the only investment I’ve made money on. I still have a lot of confidence in it. We probably have about 10 times the growth potential until Bitcoin reaches the market cap of gold. I think it’s possible. Bitcoin is so much better than gold, and you can send it to the other side of the Earth in 10 minutes.
So that’s my final thing, have fun and buy Bitcoin.
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